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Postby Plumbum » Thu Jul 19, 2018 2:32 am

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Subject title: Need help with direction

Our artist does have an art goal, but we need help creating a more intermediate one. Her end goal is being able to draw paintings of the same quality (or better) of paintings from the Romanticism. Obviously a distant goal.

Currenly she is working on figure drawing, faces, values, anatomy and 3d. Her 'brother' or lawyer, as we called him on the forum, was going to start with perspective drawings soon.

We were thinking of drawing people's characters, either from a text description or from reference. Would that be illustration? Is there any other skills they need to learn to suceed in that field? Other than learning drapery and colour, of course.

Thank you for your time.
We have DID (the thing Sycra has).

Quick summary of forum writers:
Artist: she is mainly the one who draws.
Writer: he is usually the one who writes on the forum.
Lawyer: he studies everything, honestly.
Real names are private.

Sketchbook: http://www.sycra.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=14540

 

Postby Oli » Thu Jul 19, 2018 2:27 pm

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You could start with some master studies from that era. You'll find tons of paintings that are fun to re-create.
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Postby Josephcow » Thu Jul 19, 2018 4:29 pm

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A lofty goal, but a good one!
The Romantic era is distinct in it's spirit, subject matter, and style of painting, but in the fundamental principles it's the same as anything else. Those artists could draw. Not saying their skills are god-like and unattainable, but I am saying they were well aware of many basic principles and standards of drawing for the period, and were capable of very fine work by the time they were in their 20s, at least in the case of these two:

Spoiler: show
8524-Interior-of-Salisbury-Cathedral.jpg
Interior of Salisbury Cathedral, J Turner, 1805

male-academy-figure-1821(1).jpg!Large.jpg
Academy Figure, Delacroix 1821


I have a very similar goal as you, and may thoughts on it are: whatever things they knew, I want to know, too. So I think you're studying the right sorts of things, but maybe not in the same way, or the same depth as the artists of the past. I'm trying to figure out specifically what I need to know by reading relevant books.

So I guess I second Oli, study some work that interests you and try to figure out what they thought was important.

I'd also add composition to drapery and color, in regards to the illustration!

 

Postby Wb_draws » Thu Jul 19, 2018 9:17 pm

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I would add the skill of observation, meaning ability to copy what you see. It will come very useful when studying masters or real life and when working from reference. It doesnt need to be a hyper-realistic level of accuracy, but should be rather accurate

Good luck with your goal :)

 

Postby Plumbum » Mon Jul 23, 2018 11:03 pm

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Oli and Wb, I think you are misunderstanding. We were not asking for help regarding our end goal, rather we wanted help with illustration. That's not to say you didn't provide useful guidance, and we highly appreciate it.

Wb: do you have any resources for doing life drawing? We actually have no idea how to go on about it. Do you just sit for an hour drawing/painting an object? I think she did that a few times 6 years ago. Back then we didn't have much guidance either.

Oli: she had been putting it off for a long time now. She doesn't think she is good enough yet. But we have seen Wb doing those high contrast 2 value studies. Would that be a good starting point?

Joseph: we are mostly studying under Prokopenko right now. And a few other teachers for perspective. Hopefully when we have exhasted our teachers' resources, we can do some more independent studies into the masters. Would that be the right approach?

In regards to your suggestion: do you have any good resources on how the romantics did their compositions? It's obvious looking at the paintings that they thought of it in a very different way. We are not too fond of modern compositions. We tried to read a book about shape language and it's relation with composition and it just didn't work for us. Maybe it's not too important for illustration, but we love really organic compositions.
We have DID (the thing Sycra has).

Quick summary of forum writers:
Artist: she is mainly the one who draws.
Writer: he is usually the one who writes on the forum.
Lawyer: he studies everything, honestly.
Real names are private.

Sketchbook: http://www.sycra.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=14540

 

Postby Audiazif » Tue Jul 24, 2018 12:32 am

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Plumbum wrote:she had been putting it off for a long time now. She doesn't think she is good enough yet.

Honestly, in the initial post I was getting this impression but your latest post kind of confirms my suspicions that they are kind of making excuses to not actually do what they want to do. I mean studying all that stuff before doing what they want because they don't think they are "good enough", sounds like an excuse to me. If they wait until they think they are "good enough" they are never going to actually do it.There is always going to be doubt in ones skill so "good enough" will not come anytime soon. What is "good enough" anyway? How do they know what they can and can't do? Who says they need to be a certain level to do something?

Doing a master study will give a better gauge of what they need to work on, better than anything that they think or what others think they need to work on.

Plumbum wrote:It's obvious looking at the paintings that they thought of it in a very different way.

I am going to have to disagree there. They don't have some secret or different way. They are using the same basic concepts of compositions (rule of thirds, golden ratio, Big medium small, etc.) you'd find today. Again, doing studies from masters will shed some light on the matter.
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Postby Plumbum » Tue Jul 24, 2018 11:06 am

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You think we should start doing paintings with no understanding of fundamentals?
We have DID (the thing Sycra has).

Quick summary of forum writers:
Artist: she is mainly the one who draws.
Writer: he is usually the one who writes on the forum.
Lawyer: he studies everything, honestly.
Real names are private.

Sketchbook: http://www.sycra.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=14540

 

Postby Plumbum » Tue Jul 24, 2018 12:41 pm

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Topic has been written poorly,

I am very sorry about that. The whole thing he wrote is nonsense.
Here are the actual facts.

Our artist wants to do Romanticism paintings in the distant future.
She is looking for a mid-term goal. She is not quite sure what it should be. We thought illustration might be a good one since you do require a lot of the same skills.

Question 1: is illustration a good mid-term goal or is there a mid-term goal better suited?
Question 2: is illustration decently profitable?

Currently we are working on perspective, 3d, anatomy, figure drawing, faces and values.
In the future, we will be working on drapery, colour and composition (thank you Joseph).
We are looking to start working on very simple master paintings (only two values) (thank you Oli) and observational studies (thank you Wb). We want to do this ASAP.

Question 3: does anyone know any resources for observation studies (life drawings)?

Question 4: did we forget to study anything that would be important for illustration?

Thank you for your time.
We have DID (the thing Sycra has).

Quick summary of forum writers:
Artist: she is mainly the one who draws.
Writer: he is usually the one who writes on the forum.
Lawyer: he studies everything, honestly.
Real names are private.

Sketchbook: http://www.sycra.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=14540

 

Postby Wb_draws » Tue Jul 24, 2018 3:14 pm

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Plumbum wrote:Wb: do you have any resources for doing life drawing? We actually have no idea how to go on about it. Do you just sit for an hour drawing/painting an object? I think she did that a few times 6 years ago. Back then we didn't have much guidance either.


I did not really use any resources for that. When I started learning I was attending an art course for hobbyists once a week, so usually a teacher would look at what I am doing and comment on it or suggest corrections (I highly recommend taking some course like that at the beggining, mine was taught by architects). But all in all it is as you have described it, you just sit in front of something or a photo of something (photo may be easier at the beggining) and try to draw it until you get it right (checking the relative lengths of things, angles, negative spaces and so on), for me it usually took longer than an hour (but I would usually try to render it with a pencil, and not only draw a contour). I heard that a book "drawing on the right side of the brain" is a good resource, but I have never read it myself.

As for the illustration as a mid-goal I think it is too general. Both this (sorry, I dont know how to put an image from google into the page)
https://goo.gl/images/KdQf4h
and this
https://goo.gl/images/ooKh5Y
would be considered illustration, but they are quite different.

As for the master studies, I understand you hesitation towards them, I am also waiting with doing one until I will get better at some basics :) Bear in mind that I am not too advanced myself, so I may be making a mistake with that

 

Postby Plumbum » Tue Jul 24, 2018 4:04 pm

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Thank you so much for you help! Unfortunately we don't understand the language of where we currently live (complicated story) so online resources is all we have.
We did read 'drawing on the right side of the brain'. That's definitely a good start, especially in with your instruction. Mileage seems like the answer. Do it over and over again.

You are right about our idea of illustration being too general. We were thinking of starting just illustrating characters with simple backgrounds, that sort of thing.

As for the master studies, I understand you hesitation towards them, I am also waiting with doing one until I will get better at some basics :) Bear in mind that I am not too advanced myself, so I may be making a mistake with that

You make those wonderful black and white studies, though. They are really inspiring!
We have DID (the thing Sycra has).

Quick summary of forum writers:
Artist: she is mainly the one who draws.
Writer: he is usually the one who writes on the forum.
Lawyer: he studies everything, honestly.
Real names are private.

Sketchbook: http://www.sycra.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=14540

 

Postby Josephcow » Wed Jul 25, 2018 1:57 am

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I think you're definitely in the right place currently. I can't think of a better midterm goal than working through Proko's content and improving fundamental drawing skills. The advice I gave you was kind of vague, just hitting home the idea that strong drawing foundation is important regardless of the style.

So you are studying the right things, but I think what you're really looking for is what they would teach you at an Atelier. It's an environment for the deep study of observational drawing. Proko himself trained at Watt's Atelier. There are some books that have been written designed for a student that can't get the appropriate training. But you have to get the book somehow ;)


Harold Speed, the science and practice of drawing
Solomon, the practice of oil painting and drawing


On composition:
I'm talking about value composition. You won't find a lot of people talking about this online, but pictures used to be composed with three value groups in mind: light, middle, dark. And they did it on purpose. You could try looking up 3 value notan, or notan. The only real thing I can find about this online is this article and it isn't all that good:
http://www.muddycolors.com/2012/08/comp ... structure/ This is extremely important for illustration. It's the tool which gives your picture power. It's a lot more important than color.

Trying to study in in the traditional manner is like connecting the dots of a huge connect the dot puzzle. What I just told you is basically the same information that was told to me which got me started, and I wish I knew more, but I really don't.

 

Postby Oli » Wed Jul 25, 2018 9:48 am

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I think that doing illustrations (or more complete works) will help you tons. It did help me. When I started here I joined the illustration challenges in the Arena section. It showed me where I needed to work on even more. Plus it is a super exercise to practise bringing your ideas on paper/screen. You can check the old topics and re-work some of the challenges by yourself. Might be fun.

For the life drawing, all you need is a sketchbook and a pencil. And draw what you see. Anything! Try to stay with "easy" objects and focus on form, light & shadow. Here you want to practise to bring out the volume of the objects you draw. And no worries, there is no right or wrong here as long as you have fun ;)
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Postby Wb_draws » Wed Jul 25, 2018 12:15 pm

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Plumbum wrote:
As for the master studies, I understand you hesitation towards them, I am also waiting with doing one until I will get better at some basics :) Bear in mind that I am not too advanced myself, so I may be making a mistake with that

You make those wonderful black and white studies, though. They are really inspiring!


Thanks, I am glad that you like them :)

I just remembered that there is a youtube channel called „love life drawing”, it is mostly concerned with figure drawing, and I am sure that there is some overlap with Proko videos, but maybe you will find some useful tips there.

Edit: Regarding illustration, you may want to listen to „3 point perspective” podcast in which 3 illustrators talk about various topics. I just saw that the newest episode is about money, so it may interest you (although I havent listen to it yet).


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