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Postby LK Crown » Mon Jun 24, 2019 11:05 am

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Subject title: Skills worth something?

Somebody complained the forum is too quiet, so should we start a discussion maybe about something?

How about this, i never get my head around this:
There are 7 billion people on this planet. Is it even possible that everybody of them has some skills that other people want so that everybody gets paid by other people?

For me personally, people are crazy, and I never managed to do this. I dont know how other people are able to live in this world,
but it seems nobody else cares about having to do stuff they dont want everyday for their whole lifetime,
just because somebody else came up with the idea that they have to.

Especially since there is no meaningful certificate-system that would show real skills, instead most `jobs` are about how much time you spent buckling for an authority,
but not about how good your skill at something is. (some jobs are, most of them arent about the actual skill)

This whole world seems dumb to me and skills seem extraordinarily meaningless.
You can learn a skill really good and than nobody cares because you didnt bring coffee to a boss of corporation x for the last 3-5 years.

Are skills good for something or worthless?
can everybody in the world have skills other people want?
what you think?

 

Postby fi_le » Mon Jun 24, 2019 3:52 pm

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Hi!

I'm very confused about your negative outlook, especially this:
LK Crown wrote:there is no meaningful certificate-system instead most `jobs` are about how much time you spent buckling for an authority

LK Crown wrote:it seems nobody else cares about having to do stuff they dont want everyday for their whole lifetime

I mean yikes, that's so dark. I think I do have enough faith in anything at all that I believe degrees at public universities and apprenticeship assess your skill at a given subject somewhat. Alright, drawing is the subject to which this applies least, but stated generally like you did that could hardly seem more false to me.

Skilled labour doesn't always look like you think it looks, would be my reading of this. I do not at all feel that a repetitive or uncreative job is lesser and I estimate that there is a lot of joy and perfection to be found in it.
Where an authoritative structure of the kind you described might exist I absolutely agree with you that it should cease to, the problem is not however that the labour itself is wrong, only its organisation.

Thanks for the opportunity to discuss.
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Postby LK Crown » Tue Jun 25, 2019 6:23 pm

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fi_le wrote:I think I do have enough faith in anything at all that I believe degrees at public universities and apprenticeship assess your skill at a given subject somewhat


I think you have such a positive outlook because you`re young.
I agree with Aaron Clarey on this, even if he is more talking about the US
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EpB-btLsDvY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9LFhJ42jt4

But i still dont get how it can possibly work and people can do it. But people are mysterious anyways..

 

Postby azarga » Wed Jun 26, 2019 7:39 pm

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Dunno, from my experience skill and experience are both extremely valued.

Maybe people didn't appreciate your skill because you overestimated how skilled you are?
I mean, if you offer, for example, 60 euro/month premium access to your forum and mentorship, but nobody ever buys it, maybe it's not that the world is crazy, but you just overestimated how impressive your current skill level is.
Please check my stuff here:
My dA, it is pretty bad.

 

Postby Audiazif » Thu Jun 27, 2019 5:28 pm

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LK Crown wrote:I think you have such a positive outlook because you`re young.


This illustrates why things are going to continue the way they always have.

You seem to have already made your mind up. You are going to defend your opinions and beliefs through any means necessary because you, like a lot of people, don't want to be "wrong". This is one of the reasons things are going to stay the same or at least change very slowly. People refuse to listen to things that challenge their views or change the status quo. Your reasoning for dismissing fi_le's opinion is weak at best and is rendered pointless if you had no clue of their age. This also can be seen as being closed minded and unempathetic.

azarga wrote:Maybe people didn't appreciate your skill because you overestimated how skilled you are?
I mean, if you offer, for example, 60 euro/month premium access to your forum and mentorship, but nobody ever buys it, maybe it's not that the world is crazy, but you just overestimated how impressive your current skill level is.


I agree along the lines of this. No one is going to pay a premium for someone's skill if they are mediocre at that skill. One needs to specialize in a skill in order to benefit from that skill and stand out from the majority. How much that person benefits form that skill is based on many factors.
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Postby LK Crown » Thu Jun 27, 2019 6:18 pm

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Audiazif wrote:You seem to have already made your mind up.


but why? just out of nothing,
or because of years of experience with people in the real world?

.. but I admit, this is way too vague, we would have to discuss about more specific things, not generally, if "things can change" or not.

what I was saying is, that the systems in place - like universities, degrees etc - do not make it possible to `just do the thing` and then `just get paid for the skill you acquired`,
why?
because you always run into people with egos, who have to decide by their choice, if you will `get the job`, `have a career` or whatever.
but even `careers` are (from experience) never just using the skill you have acquired, it is participating in office politics and stuff like that, to the point of being absurd.

and if you make your own thing, like your own business, you have to get other people, the customers, to decide that you should earn something from them.

why always make the system and life around having to get other people to make the decision, that you should get something?

Audiazif wrote:I agree along the lines of this. No one is going to pay a premium for someone's skill if they are mediocre at that skill. One needs to specialize in a skill in order to benefit from that skill and stand out from the majority. How much that person benefits form that skill is based on many factors.


but that was the question - how can 7 billion people all stand out from the crowd?

... and WHY?



--- just one specific example:
I would be willing to work 24/7, learn something really good and just do the thing that I learned, if then I would get paid really good money for it. Is that possible? no. why? because then come people who make up random criteria, for example, if you want to work in this office and use the math skills that you acquired, you have to show that you worked the last 5 years in an office, too, because otherwise you seem to not be able to use the computer or whatever the reasoning is.

It is NOT the case, that they say `here: A B C are the skills, you have to learn that, take a test, if you learned it, we pay you for it.(if you also learn D E and F, we pay sum X additionally!)`
thats not how it works, at least where I come from.

And if you work in an office, you can not even just do your work and be happy and make the boss happy if you have finished the work, after having done everything you HAVE TO LOOK BUSY! why? because they make it not about the specific task, that has to be done, instead they make it about what the clock says. If you did your work faster than expected, you have to look busy the rest of the time.

 

Postby azarga » Thu Jun 27, 2019 7:52 pm

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A few thoughts on the post above.

1. You don't have to stand out of 7 billion people. Those 7 billion are not competing within the same single field, they are split into thousands of occupations (even if with overlaps). You are competing only with those in the same occupation. And in that competition you don't have to be #1. Have to be competent enough to do the job well enough to satisfy the employer/customer.
2. Unfortunately, it's not employers' responsibility to adjust their demands to your skill. It's your job to provide skillset that satisfies employer's demands if you want to be hired by that employer.
3. Not getting hired due to employer's ego once or twice is reasonable. But if you keep being rejected due to someone else's ego, maybe the problem lies within you and not them. In situations when whole world is wrong and only you are right careful self inspection won't be a bad idea.
4. Considering yourself skilled and being skilled are not the same thing.
5. Unless you are into that sort of thing, dealing with other people can be damn annoying and difficult. Nobody ('cept maybe your parents) owes you their attention, appreciation, time or money.
6. Life is hard :(
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My dA, it is pretty bad.

 

Postby LK Crown » Thu Jun 27, 2019 10:31 pm

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Very good points, I would agree to all of that.


This here is one thing
"Have to be competent enough to do the job well enough to satisfy the employer/customer"

from my personal experience, not once it was tested.
really, not once.
thats what I mean with no meaningful certificate system. Thats like the example of art teachers who are not good enough to be artists, but they are qualified to teach art. because the job world doesnt care about skills or if you can do a task, but only AND ONLY about your CV or random requirements.
and thats sad.

If I would try to hire people, I would give them a task and a date, when it has to be finished, than I would let them to what and how they want it, and the one who brings the best result, I would hire, because he did the task.
Employers dont do that.

Customers? maybe they do that more or less unconsciously. If you piss them off with bad results they wont return.

 

Postby fi_le » Fri Jun 28, 2019 4:37 pm

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(Not getting into the little ad hominem Audiazif kindly pointed out because it's all fine under the sun and this is the internet after all, no problem.)

Again, I have trouble crowbarring apart the good the the bad criticism of late capitalism. It took the advice person linked above a minute and thirteen seconds to unironically call people at work "virtue signaling" and people who think different from him "normies and conformies and inferiors", my expectations after that were not exactly subverted either.

My bigger point here is that there is a lot of analysis into why capitalism is weird and none of the good parts involve personally faulting players in the economic game.
There are whole professions designed around hiring people and especially big corporations have a very refined way to choose who to get into their business. It is by definition a bureaucracy, because it cannot work efficiently in a different way. Top-down control will always be like this, I estimate, because part of the power is keeping information unevenly distributed. If you want to know more about these complicated systems of control that work very well, get into the fields that study this.
If you assume private control of the means of production is awesome and then attribute the failing to the folks in power doing it wrong, then I think that's not a great way to go about it.
LK Crown wrote:If I would try to hire people,

Well, that's what the employers had thought to themselves, too; I believe they are a feisty bunch and not that stupid either.

I think it's clear what I'm implying here as a solution, but that's not the point.
LK Crown wrote:But people are mysterious anyways..

That's what I am all about though, this is giving me all the worst elitist vibes and I would urge you to reconsider your position.

Very good points all around here folks, it's only that I found our dear LK's position the most interesting to answer to.
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Postby LK Crown » Fri Jun 28, 2019 5:25 pm

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fi_le wrote:I would urge you to reconsider your position.



you make really really good points.

what other position should I consider instead?
(honest question - the position that skills are good and useful and it is worth acquiring skills and it will pay off? and 7 billion people should strive to all have skills that others want from them?)

fi_le wrote:
LK Crown wrote:If I would try to hire people,

Well, that's what the employers had thought to themselves, too; I believe they are a feisty bunch and not that stupid either.

I think it's clear what I'm implying here as a solution, but that's not the point.


No, what solution are you implying here?


---
I could try to change the main question to
`what skills should one acquire in order to make the whole thing pay off?`

is that better or more interesting or more reasonable?

..but still, should we really try to keep 7 billion people busy artificially?
Its not as if the labour of all people in the world is needed to produce enough food like in earlier times of humanity.

(am I rambling too much through several topics?)

 

Postby svarn » Fri Jun 28, 2019 11:04 pm

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Skills are not that easy to messure, and experience is often prefered because all the theory in the world is not going to help you much in doing something you've never done.
Let's take an art example. You can be a really good artist, but you've never worked for a company. So you don't know what a pipeline looks like. Someone will have to teach you that, which will take time and effort. On top of that you might just figure that you hate it in the first place and quit. Or you might not take well to getting critiques, or having to make dozens of revisions.
Meanwhile the other guy, that might not be equally good artist but has worked in this enviroment before. They can pretty much just plug him in, and he knows what he's signing up for.

Another things to consider when hiring people is how motivated are they ? Are they hungry for improvement or are they just going to do the 9-5 ? How long might they stay in the company ? What kind of personality do they have ? And so on.
Each and any of those atributes might turn your skill worthless. What good is your skill if you're just looking for a temporary job and you'll leave before company gets their return on having to implement you into the system ? Or if you are a pain to work with ? You can be the best guy in the office and actually be detrimental to the company, just because you have negative impact on other employees. Or maybe you're really skilled, but you're not motivated to work at all, so the other guy that's completely avarage will actually have a better output then you or has a better potential long term. Etc


"..but still, should we really try to keep 7 billion people busy artificially?
Its not as if the labour of all people in the world is needed to produce enough food like in earlier times of humanity."

We are far beyond producing food or even what we "need". Otherwise we'd be all living in a field, not chatting about humanity's problems over the internet.

 

Postby fi_le » Sat Jun 29, 2019 10:06 am

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@LK
OK, I thought I was being clear when I wasn't, as it turns out. Thanks for the consideration first of all!

I'm a lefty. This means that what I was adressing earlier had little to do with your question of how you can do as best as possible in the present system. Instead, I was trying to point out how these highly effective corporations I was talking about are alienating and imperfect, that maybe the self-determination in cooperation with others is rather possible when you assemble without starting with a hierarchy in the first place, an existing version of this is called worker-owned cooperatives. Again, they are brilliant at turning up a profit, just maybe not that brilliant at producing fulfilling lives. (That's not to say that worker co-ops aren't profitable, indeed they seem to be just as good at making money. Fun case study.)

Now, if you understandibly want to know what you yourself can do to find similar circumstances, you have shaky chances in entertainment. If I had to guess where you have the best chances of effective and - depending on how you view this - also creative work is in Engeneering and Computer Science. I think self-determination increases currently when your skill is in high demand, maybe these stats are interesting. Since working in a team is very cool, too, social skills are always needed - capitalist or not!

LK Crown wrote:..but still, should we really try to keep 7 billion people busy artificially?

You're right, that's absurd! That would be one of the inherent flaws needing to be adressed. If you're looking for this kind of analysis, how about "Capitalist Realism" (2009) by Mark Fisher, I found that one a great read. Maybe you'd like to go through this YouTube channel touching on theory of modern society.

@svarn
Definitely this. Sounds like a good assessment of what an employer might think about when hiring.
...you see, it's supposed to be fi_le like the file from the computer... the one where you put the data things in.

my sketchbook on here and my Instagram

 

Postby CaptainKiryu » Wed Jan 29, 2020 11:46 pm

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@LK Crown, I think I understand decently where you are coming from. But it sort of comes across like you are mixing an existential argument with a sociopolitical and socio-psychological one and it comes off a bit incoherently. Not sure if you are looking to vent or thinking there is actually a clean answer to your questions.

Coming from someone who is also a cynic/pessimist (or whatever you'd like to call it), social skills are just as, if not more important than any other skills. Life is a game and there are no guarantees. People generally have to find what they are good at and do what they can with that and pray they get lucky or aren't tragically unlucky.

Everything costs something so if one takes issue with being someone's employee and not having the autonomy to do one's work well at the times and speeds one works best at then you have to weigh whether or not it bothers one enough to do something about it. One can choose to work within the established systems or try to create their own. I am going to go back a bit on what I said before about guarantees---failure is not a threat, it's a promise.

But I also don't think it's inherently bad to take time to vent/rant about unfairness in the world before you've come up with answers for how to fix it. The trick of separating the problems of the world from the problems of one's own ego can get a bit hairy though. Trying to reconcile how we view ourselves with how everyone else does, whether they're friends, strangers, or authority figures is probably one of the most stressful things I've personally dealt with lately and I think most people could agree
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