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Postby hiddenartist2 » Tue Jul 02, 2019 12:03 pm

  hiddenartist2
Posts: 18
Joined: Sat Mar 23, 2019 2:18 pm

Subject title: Iconography drawing, need explanation and advices.

How to start drawing this way, or how to start mixing shapes and iconography?
https://imgur.com/a/C8ltkDT

And this is more of a western comic style
https://imgur.com/a/fYDr0vM

I want to find some medium between western/manga. I don't like formless manga legs/arms. But i dont like very muscular western style, like everything is always flexed.
Also pics looks stiff to me, especially manga legs, hands. Look at comic drawing packs, it just doesn't work this way, its stiff. Legs flow is just like 1 line. Upper/lower arms very sharp change of an angle of a forms.

I'm not trying to blame or criticise anyone. I know mane manga/comic artists draw this way. I want to start drawing this way and learn how to draw with all those inperfections. But each time i sketch a simple pose, i trying fix every little thing to get it perfect and i hate it.

If a single little finger on an ankle looks stiff, to me it looks wrong.
And then you try to get it in flow, you start erasing over and over, becuase now it looks wrong not because of a lack of flow, but because anatomy is wrong.

And what about this perspective inperfections. Each time i try draw this iconographical way, i erase things a hunder times, because perspective is off.
Do i really care to much about perspective, flow? The purpose is drawing comic.

Kim Jung Gi drawing
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvqOjCx4PG0
24:26 man on motorcycle drawing, perspective is off

How do i deal with this inperfections? Again, i'm not saying i can draw this, BUT if i would draw this i'd blame myself and erase things until i get it right and it leads to spending more time on a drawing, which is not acceptable for drawing a comic.

And the question about this realism drawing
https://www.arturamon.com/wp-content/up ... e-nude.jpg
To me again, it looks a bit stiffy, it looks like a bunch of body parts connected to each other in right perspective.
Is there any other ways of drawing figure, rather than constructional drawing? But at the same time getting all this anatomy in place, ofcurse not close to realism, but atleast main muscle groups.

I read somewhere there is some realism artists who are like really good at anatomy, others are like better at drawing it with flow.

I dont really know much artists, other than Glenn Vilpu/Michael hampton. Glenn looks like he relies on flows more. But is there any other artists, who are not really much into construstion, but flow and at the same time getting perspective and anatomy at decent level.

 

Postby svarn » Tue Jul 02, 2019 5:36 pm

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  svarn
Posts: 566
Joined: Tue Jul 30, 2013 12:37 am

To start things off, it'd be easier for people to help you if you'd share more of your work (as far as I can tell you've only posted a single image on the forums, and that's couple months old).

As for your question ... It's a really long and convoluted I'm afraid, so I'm probably going to skip over a lot of points that you'd want covered.
I'd say forget about iconography in general. If you want to simplify then it'll be a piece of cake once you have a solid understanding of anatomy and other fundamentals. If you start to use iconography at this stage, then you're likely to end up with just crooked drawings. Generally I'd say, try to draw the whole realistic thing for now and once you get comfortable with it, you can choose which elements to skip / simplify / stylise and so on.

In regards to "beeing ok" with making mistakes. My take on it is that, as you get better, the overall quality of the image can neglect a lot of those mistakes. There's one example that I really like personally. There used to be a really loved skin in League of Legends. It was really popular, and I've seen it 100s of times over the years, and after like 2 years I finally noticed that the character's leg has an additional joint in her thigh ... The anatomy was just absurd and nobody even noticed all this time (Riot clearly didn't either, as they've kept it in game for so long).
Likewise Kim Jung Gi's perspective is actually really wonky really often, because he draws it by feeling, and he loves making those crazy perspectives. But in my opinion it doesn't take away from the enjoyment of his work.
On the other hand if the whole drawing is mediocre at best, then I feel those mistakes are standing out much more.

So judging by your description and that one image that you've posted, I'd recommend studying anatomy from Hampton and Villpu. I'm gonna get bashed for saying this but afterwards I'd probably look towards artists like Sakimichan, Ilya Kushinov, Zeronis, Ross Tran and on so. You can pick up a lot of flow and appeal from their work, and I think those are also styles relatively close to what you seem to be aiming for.

 

Postby Ambiguity » Thu Jul 04, 2019 3:39 am

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  Ambiguity
Posts: 5534
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Location: Your dreams

hiddenartist2 wrote:How to start drawing this way, or how to start mixing shapes and iconography?

Study from real things, and study how other artists you like simplify those real things. Even artists like Hampton and Vilppu are simplifying.

hiddenartist2 wrote:I don't like formless manga legs/arms.

That's where things like shading, hatching, cross-contouring, and line weights come in. Silhouettes tell your brain the major information about what you're looking at though, so don't neglect that.

hiddenartist2 wrote:Also pics looks stiff to me, especially manga legs, hands. Look at comic drawing packs, it just doesn't work this way, its stiff. Legs flow is just like 1 line. Upper/lower arms very sharp change of an angle of a forms.

I'm not trying to blame or criticise anyone. I know mane manga/comic artists draw this way. I want to start drawing this way and learn how to draw with all those inperfections. But each time i sketch a simple pose, i trying fix every little thing to get it perfect and i hate it.

I wouldn't aim to purposefully draw with imperfections, I'd aim to show as much information as possible with as little detail as possible. Your drawings should still be "correct" to their purpose, even if their purpose isn't realism per se, otherwise you're just gonna end up with a hodge-podge of stuff that doesn't look like it fits together. Also, if there is something another artist does that you don't like, but you like everything else about their work, just take the things you do like. There is no law that says it's all or nothing.

hiddenartist2 wrote:If a single little finger on an ankle looks stiff, to me it looks wrong.
And then you try to get it in flow, you start erasing over and over, becuase now it looks wrong not because of a lack of flow, but because anatomy is wrong.

And what about this perspective inperfections. Each time i try draw this iconographical way, i erase things a hunder times, because perspective is off.
Do i really care to much about perspective, flow? The purpose is drawing comic.

The first part is as it should be, and the stuff about you having to erase over and over just tells me you lack the fundamental understanding to bend things to your will imo. Also, I think you should know that perfectly flowing anatomy is an idealization of real life, there are poses in real life that look stiff because they are actually stiff(think of army men lined up in front of their commanding officer, they are very stiff). Muscles also don't always flow gracefully from one to the other, and forms often fight perspective. It's the artists job to edit, not record; we take the information life gives us and we reinterpret it to our purpose.

hiddenartist2 wrote:How do i deal with this inperfections? Again, i'm not saying i can draw this, BUT if i would draw this i'd blame myself and erase things until i get it right and it leads to spending more time on a drawing, which is not acceptable for drawing a comic

Once again you reinterpret and simplify. KJG doesn't have to simplify as much as others because he has an amazing memory for details, but the vast majority of comic book artists from every country simplify so that even if there is a mistake, they can fix it a lot quicker because there isn't as many things to fix as there would be in a full blown illustration.

hiddenartist2 wrote:Is there any other ways of drawing figure, rather than constructional drawing? But at the same time getting all this anatomy in place, ofcurse not close to realism, but atleast main muscle groups.

There is all sorts of ways to skin a cat. Construction, detail to detail, scribbling, enveloping, etc. Todd McFarlane and Greg Capullo talk a bit about that and using iconography like you were here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45eXa4DCvpQ pt.1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WopCfm3KHY4 pt.2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9SwSttDzdY pt.3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-d-yKZsck8 pt.4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZfmbHpyNwB4 pt.5
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6m5gTSX9RjY pt.6

hiddenartist2 wrote:I read somewhere there is some realism artists who are like really good at anatomy, others are like better at drawing it with flow.

I don't think that's something easily provable, I wouldn't worry about statements that deal in absolutes like that.

 

Postby Ambiguity » Thu Jul 04, 2019 3:40 am

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  Ambiguity
Posts: 5534
Joined: Thu May 17, 2012 7:55 am
Location: Your dreams

hiddenartist2 wrote:How to start drawing this way, or how to start mixing shapes and iconography?

Study from real things, and study how other artists you like simplify those real things. Even artists like Hampton and Vilppu are simplifying.

hiddenartist2 wrote:I don't like formless manga legs/arms.

That's where things like shading, hatching, cross-contouring, and line weights come in. Silhouettes tell your brain the major information about what you're looking at though, so don't neglect that.

hiddenartist2 wrote:Also pics looks stiff to me, especially manga legs, hands. Look at comic drawing packs, it just doesn't work this way, its stiff. Legs flow is just like 1 line. Upper/lower arms very sharp change of an angle of a forms.

I'm not trying to blame or criticise anyone. I know mane manga/comic artists draw this way. I want to start drawing this way and learn how to draw with all those inperfections. But each time i sketch a simple pose, i trying fix every little thing to get it perfect and i hate it.

I wouldn't aim to purposefully draw with imperfections, I'd aim to show as much information as possible with as little detail as possible. Your drawings should still be "correct" to their purpose, even if their purpose isn't realism per se, otherwise you're just gonna end up with a hodge-podge of stuff that doesn't look like it fits together. Also, if there is something another artist does that you don't like, but you like everything else about their work, just take the things you do like. There is no law that says it's all or nothing.

hiddenartist2 wrote:If a single little finger on an ankle looks stiff, to me it looks wrong.
And then you try to get it in flow, you start erasing over and over, becuase now it looks wrong not because of a lack of flow, but because anatomy is wrong.

And what about this perspective inperfections. Each time i try draw this iconographical way, i erase things a hunder times, because perspective is off.
Do i really care to much about perspective, flow? The purpose is drawing comic.

The first part is as it should be, and the stuff about you having to erase over and over just tells me you lack the fundamental understanding to bend things to your will imo. Also, I think you should know that perfectly flowing anatomy is an idealization of real life, there are poses in real life that look stiff because they are actually stiff(think of army men lined up in front of their commanding officer, they are very stiff). Muscles also don't always flow gracefully from one to the other, and forms often fight perspective. It's the artists job to edit, not record; we take the information life gives us and we reinterpret it to our purpose.

hiddenartist2 wrote:How do i deal with this inperfections? Again, i'm not saying i can draw this, BUT if i would draw this i'd blame myself and erase things until i get it right and it leads to spending more time on a drawing, which is not acceptable for drawing a comic

Once again you reinterpret and simplify. KJG doesn't have to simplify as much as others because he has an amazing memory for details, but the vast majority of comic book artists from every country simplify so that even if there is a mistake, they can fix it a lot quicker because there isn't as many things to fix as there would be in a full blown illustration.

hiddenartist2 wrote:Is there any other ways of drawing figure, rather than constructional drawing? But at the same time getting all this anatomy in place, ofcurse not close to realism, but atleast main muscle groups.

There is all sorts of ways to skin a cat. Construction, detail to detail, scribbling, enveloping, etc. Todd McFarlane and Greg Capullo talk a bit about that and using iconography like you were here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45eXa4DCvpQ pt.1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WopCfm3KHY4 pt.2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9SwSttDzdY pt.3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-d-yKZsck8 pt.4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZfmbHpyNwB4 pt.5
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6m5gTSX9RjY pt.6

hiddenartist2 wrote:I read somewhere there is some realism artists who are like really good at anatomy, others are like better at drawing it with flow.

I don't think that's something easily provable, I wouldn't worry about statements that deal in absolutes like that.


svarn wrote: I'm gonna get bashed for saying this but afterwards I'd probably look towards artists like Sakimichan, Ilya Kushinov, Zeronis, Ross Tran and on so.

Tom just wants to watch the world burn.

 

Postby azarga » Thu Jul 04, 2019 2:55 pm

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  azarga
Posts: 338
Joined: Sat May 16, 2015 11:14 pm
Location: putinland

svarn wrote: Ilya Kushinov,


WF8ajgkh_400x400.jpg

ANGERY
Please check my stuff here:
My dA, it is pretty bad.

 

Postby fi_le » Thu Jul 04, 2019 3:19 pm

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  fi_le
Posts: 343
Joined: Sun Aug 27, 2017 7:15 pm

svarn wrote:Zeronis, Ross Tran


Goddamn, dude, you disappoint me. *sobs in Singer Sargent*
...you see, it's supposed to be fi_le like the file from the computer... the one where you put the data things in.

my sketchbook on here and my Instagram

 

Postby svarn » Thu Jul 04, 2019 7:13 pm

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  svarn
Posts: 566
Joined: Tue Jul 30, 2013 12:37 am

Lmao, I'm not saying they are art gods. But I think they are THE artists for THIS job.
Just look up the image OP posted in critique and the description of his goal. I'm pretty sure Sargent is not going to help there ;)

 

Postby fi_le » Fri Jul 05, 2019 1:21 pm

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  fi_le
Posts: 343
Joined: Sun Aug 27, 2017 7:15 pm

SARGENT ALWAYS HELPS!!!!!!1!
1200px-Sargent,_John_SInger_(1856-1925)_-_Self-Portrait_1907_b.jpg
...you see, it's supposed to be fi_le like the file from the computer... the one where you put the data things in.

my sketchbook on here and my Instagram


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