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Postby tokigami.kineko » Sat Jan 13, 2018 7:50 am

  
tokigami.kineko

Subject title: Can anyone help me choose basic learning materials?

I have found a few basic learning materials so far. But, I want to choose one or two for each section.

Basics of Drawing

  • Keys to Drawing by Bert Dodson
  • Drawing on the Right Side of the Brain: The Definitive, 4th Edition
  • ....

I had been learning Bert Dodson's book. It is pretty good, but it has one drawback which is that it requires drawing references that it takes some time for me to prepare.

Perspective

  • Marshall Vendruff's perspective series
  • Perspective Made Easy by Norling
  • Perspective Made Easy: A Step-by-Step Guide by Robbie Lee
  • How to Draw by Scott Robertson <-- A bad book for beginners?
  • ....

 

Postby Moe » Sat Jan 13, 2018 12:44 pm

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First of all, there is no perfect path. Most artists start out by copying their favorite artists and just drawing whatever the hell they want. That's a good way to build up mileage. How to draw by scott robertson is geared more towards artists who are interested in industrial design. If you're trying to get a general sense of perspective for illustration or comic work, I think Marshall vandruff and perspective made easy would be sufficient. Drawing on the right side of the brain is pretty much just learning to draw what you see. You can achieve that by simply copying your favorite artists/photos/life and trying to reproduce it as accurately as possible.
Yolo

 

Postby Josephcow » Sat Jan 13, 2018 11:37 pm

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It doesn't take long to go through the exercises in Right Side of the Brain. Worth the read in my opinion.

How to Draw What You See by De Reyna is pretty good if you're looking for more basic drawing books. It's more about construction than the other two I believe.

 

Postby tokigami.kineko » Sun Jan 14, 2018 4:27 am

  
tokigami.kineko

Moe wrote:perspective made easy

Did you mean Perspective Made Easy by Norling? You could have referred to Perspective Made Easy: A Step-by-Step Guide by Robbie Lee.
Moe wrote:If you're trying to get a general sense of perspective for illustration or comic work, I think Marshall vandruff and perspective made easy would be sufficient.

Do you recommend learning both Marshall vandruff's videos and perspective made easy?
Josephcow wrote:How to Draw What You See by De Reyna is pretty good if you're looking for more basic drawing books. It's more about construction than the other two I believe.

How is How to Draw What You See by De Reyna more basic? Is it simply easier to follow as a beginner?
I don't think I want something easier than Keys to drawing. I could understand the contents of the book.
How would you compare the three books in more detail? I suspect any choice won't make a lot of difference in the long run, though.

Dorian Iten recommended reading all 6 books on https://www.alexhays.com/loomis/, starting with fun with a pencil. I read tables of contents for those books.
They were solid, but the total volume is intimidating. What does anyone think of learning loomis' books?

 

Postby Ambiguity » Sun Jan 14, 2018 12:19 pm

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I've only read Creative Illustration from Loomis, but I thoroughly enjoyed it. Some people find it hard to get through his books because of the old timey language, but his books are still among the most comprehensive art books you can find. Him, George Bridgman, and Burne Hogarth are the most cited instructors for anatomy/figure drawing, more recently Michael Hampton's book has also become a favorite.

I'd say Scott Robertson's book is only bad for beginners who can't draw straight lines and ellipses freehand(not that you have to do this, and for some things you'll definitely want rulers), and those who don't have an internet connection to watch the videos that come with the book. Otherwise it's kind of like a math book in the sense that it gives you formulas for constructing things, you just have to repeat them with your own hands.

Also, before someone recommends Color and Light by James Gurney, I'd honestly just not bother with it. Only a small section in the second half of the book is practical knowledge(just some stuff on color palettes and paint types), the rest is basically just an encyclopedia of lighting conditions with no instruction on how to go about painting them.

 

Postby DarkLored123 » Sun Jan 14, 2018 4:13 pm

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I recommend you try out a book called Force: Dynamic Life Drawing by Mike Mattesi, it goes over how you can balance out curves and straight(not literately straight) lines to show the distribution of weight and is generally a good book about dynamic gesture drawings.

 

Postby tokigami.kineko » Mon Jan 15, 2018 3:24 am

  
tokigami.kineko

DarkLored123 wrote:I recommend you try out a book called Force: Dynamic Life Drawing by Mike Mattesi

I believe that is useful to people who learned basics. It is already in my curriculum, but I need to trim my curriculum.
Ambiguity wrote:I've only read Creative Illustration from Loomis, but I thoroughly enjoyed it. Some people find it hard to get through his books because of the old timey language, but his books are still among the most comprehensive art books you can find. Him, George Bridgman, and Burne Hogarth are the most cited instructors for anatomy/figure drawing, more recently Michael Hampton's book has also become a favorite.

I suspect loomis' books overlap with other materials for anatomy, perspective, etc, ...
Currently, I'm trying to trim redundancy in my curriculum.

This is the current version of my curriculum.
Spoiler: show
Linear Track: Fundamentals of Drawing
[x] means Done. [o] means In Progress. [ ] means ‘Not Done’.

Basic Drawing
• [o] Bert Dodson, Keys to Drawing
• [ ] How to Practice Drawing by Sycra Yasin
• [x] How to Draw: Foreshortening with the Coil Technique by Sycra Yasin
• [ ] How to Draw What You See by Dorian Iten???
• [ ] Memory Drawing by Dorian Iten???
• [ ] Andrew Loomis (all books, start with Fun with a Pencil)
(This is intimidating. How long will it take to learn all books? Do they overlap with other materials for perspective and anatomy?)

Proportion and placement
• [ ] Accuracy Guide by Dorian Iten
• [ ] Accuracy Training by Dorian Iten
• [ ] Charles Bargue: Drawing Course?? (An advanced course in proportion for atelier)

Form & Construction
(Though Keys to drawing teaches a few key points of form and construction, I don’t know whether I need more depth as a beginner.)
[TIP]
• Draw primitive shapes
• Assemble primitive shapes into a complex shape such as a human body

Perspective (Shall I learn both or just one of them?)
• [ ] Marshall Vendruff's perspective series
• [ ] Perspective Made Easy by Norling

Anatomy
• [ ] Atlas of Human Anatomy for the Artist by Stephen Bogers Peck
• [ ] Dynamic Anatomy by Burne Hogarth???
• [ ] https://www.youtube.com/user/ProkoTV
• Resources
◦ Sycra.net
◦ Google
http://www.anatomy360.info/anatomy-scan-reference-dump/
◦ houdon ecorche (There are smartphone apps for this. Muscles are colored differrently to each other in apps.)

Gesture??
• Force: Dynamic Life Drawing by Mike Mattesi
• Ryan Woodward???
• Figure Drawing (Look for lines of action, gesture. Exaggerate poses)

Composition
• [ ] Framed Ink
• [ ] Every Frame a Painting

Value (Greyscale values)
[TIP] Draw Still Lives with Charcoal, or Draw Photos on Tablet
• [ ] The Value Game by Sycra Yasin
• [ ] How Painters Use Squinting by Sycra Yasin
• [ ] Foundations of Light and Shadow by Sycra Yasin
• [ ] Mastering Light & Form by Dorian Iten ??

Color Theory (I can’t learn every.)
• [ ] How to Choose Colours that Work! by Sycra Yasin
• [ ] ALLA PRIMA II by Richard Schmid, or Color and light by James Gurney
• [ ] huevaluechroma.com by David Briggs
• [ ] Water colors by Bruce MacEvoy
• [ ] Handprint.com Color and Light
• [ ] Glowing Colors on http://www.handprint.com


I perceive three options with regard to Andrew Loomis.

1. Learn his books as part of basic drawing. Learn other materials although they overlap with Loomis' books.
2. Replace Andrew Loomis with a book about basic drawing with a narrower scope. I could keep learning 'Keys to drawing' or switch to 'Drawing on the right side of the brain'.
3. Keep Loomis. Remove a few materials from my curriculum to avoid redundancy.
Last edited by tokigami.kineko on Tue Jan 16, 2018 7:38 am, edited 8 times in total.

 

Postby Moe » Mon Jan 15, 2018 6:46 am

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You're never going to have one resource that can cover anything. If you want to learn anatomy for example, constructive anatomy by george bridgeman might be a good option but you'll probably have to look at other anatomy sources as well. I think they are both good and they essentially cover the same thing. Remember though, perspective is 50 part practice and 1 part theory. In other words, it's a good idea to find ways to apply this knowledge. Since you're interested in manga, making comic strips could be a good way to go about it.
Yolo

 

Postby Josephcow » Mon Jan 15, 2018 7:12 am

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tokigami.kineko wrote:How is How to Draw What You See by De Reyna more basic? Is it simply easier to follow as a beginner?
I don't think I want something easier than Keys to drawing. I could understand the contents of the book.
How would you compare the three books in more detail? I suspect any choice won't make a lot of difference in the long run, though.


Sorry, i should have said "if you're looking for additional basic drawing books. It's not more basic, it's just a different kind of basic.
Redundancy is a good thing in this case. You need repetition of these ideas from several points of view. Don't think for one second that if you read something once in these books you will have completely learned it. Why not read all the books mentioned? You might think I'm crazy but honestly it wouldn't hurt to look through lots of different books. I don't understand this curriculum business. Of course have a plan, but why so strict about it? For now my suggestion is still just keep drawing and going through assignments in Keys of Drawing.


Keys to Drawing gets you to just look and draw and introduces a lot of common techniques.
Right side of the brain tries to get you to remove your symbolic way of seeing and see in a different way.
How to Draw What you See has good examples of how you can think of things as basic 3D forms.
All of Loomis' books are good. They are worth reading and often referenced.

 

Postby tokigami.kineko » Mon Jan 15, 2018 7:28 am

  
tokigami.kineko

Josephcow wrote:Redundancy is a good thing in this case. You need repetition of these ideas from several points of view. Don't think for one second that if you read something once in these books you will have completely learned it. Why not read all the books mentioned? You might think I'm crazy but honestly it wouldn't hurt to look through lots of different books. But of course keep drawing and going through assignments in Keys of Drawing.

I agree that some redundancy is good. However, in my experiences, I usually reach a point of increasingly diminishing return after reading 2~3 books in each area.
Josephcow wrote:it wouldn't hurt to look through lots of different books

If you mean skipping or going rapidly over redundant exercises by look through, I agree. Since general practice is done in daily practice sessions, I can read everything but skip redundant exercises that I feel confident about. That way, reading them all won't require a lot of time.
Also, I don't have to read Andrew Loomis' books. Can Michael Hampton's Figure Drawing: Design and Invention stand in for Andrew Loomis' Figure Drawing For All Its Worth and Drawing The Head & Hands?
Last edited by tokigami.kineko on Tue Jan 16, 2018 7:31 am, edited 23 times in total.

 

Postby Wb_draws » Mon Jan 15, 2018 12:39 pm

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tokigami.kineko wrote:I agree that some redundancy is good.
However, in my experiences, I usually reach a point of increasingly diminishing return after reading 2~3 books in each area.
Take javascript for example. I read two books on javascript when I was a beginning programmer. Each book taught slightly different aspects of javascript.
After reading two books, just by skimming tables of contents, I could easily tell myself that reading more of basic javascript books would be a waste of my time.
At that point, I could move on to more advanced topics and still get more practice without reading more of basic javascript books.


I think that drawing or painting are quite different than learning java. To learn programming language you just need to understand and memorize the language structure, the goal of practice is then to help memorize this structure and learn to use it more efficiently (program faster). This is why when you can program in one language you can basically program in all of them, because the basic structure is the same, only the commands are different.

Drawing and painting, on the other hand, rely heavily on your muscle memory. What that means is that you can read 100 books on perspective, anatomy and so on, and you will still be bad at drawing, because your hand will be miles away from your brain. Because you can build muscle memory only by practice, I would say you should focus less on choosing the perfect book, and focus more on drawing. Choose the book which have a lot of excercises, so it will force you to draw a lot. If I were you, I would allocate 10% of practice time on books and tutorials and 90% on drawing. Probably, these proportions change when you get more advanced, as then you will need to focus more on details (although I am not at this point myself).

Consider that I am a begginner myself, so take my advices with a a grain of salt, those are just my thoughts on the topic ;)

 

Postby Peteman22 » Mon Jan 15, 2018 12:52 pm

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I'm gonna recommend Drawabox.com - It's main focus is on form, so sort of perspective but more to do with being able to draw things that look real and solid vs. extensive plotting and angle measuring. It's great for beginner's and for a mere $3 a month you get feedback if you sign up to the patreon.
What are you doing? Stop browsing the forum and get drawing.

Just visit my sketchbook first:

http://www.sycra.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=37212 Come say hello!


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