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Postby tokigami.kineko » Mon Jan 01, 2018 12:22 pm

  
tokigami.kineko

Subject title: How to remove logistic barriers in customized curricula?

I'm trying to bootstrap my career as a digital comics artist, but it's not easy alone because art curricula are geared toward drawing from life on papers in art classes.
In short, outside art classes, learning from a book that involves drawing to life comes with various logistic challenges.

Pen displays like Cintiq and others can substitute papers for my purposes.
I'm even considering buying a portable pen display to carry it to various places.
But, I will draw on paper if drawing on pen display is not feasible.

The hard part is logistic challenges that come with drawing from life outside art classes.
Without a portable pen display, drawing from life is difficult. With a big pen display like Cintiq 22HD, drawing from life is logistically almost impossible.

Because I have my own customized art curriculum, I can't find a way to process life-drawing exercises of art textbooks in batches.
If I couldn't batch drawing from actual humans and primitive shapes, drawing from life takes far more time and money than in batches.
I mean if I need to find an actual human model once every week on my own, arranging appointments already takes up a lot of time and money. Besides, I actually have to pay humans on my own.
You can already imagine that the effort involved in this is almost insurmountable for an individual. In short, I need to do many of the things an art school does for students. It is a business.
If I just followed the curriculum of an art school, everything from drawing primitive shapes to drawing humans would be done in batches, though.

I ended up substituting realistic 3D renders, my own photos, and internet photos for life because I wanted to try my own customized curriculum.

I started learning from Bert Dodson's Keys to drawing. It instructed me to draw from primitive shapes and other drawings and actual humans. When it instructed me to draw from a three quarter view of a human head in strong lighting, I couldn't find a human model nor internet pictures on my own. I asked on sycra forum. As many people already know, people didn't think it was a good idea to learn to draw by drawing from photos and 3D renders although one person found realistic 3D renders for three quarter views of a human head in strong lighting.

How can I remove logistic barriers and start focusing on drawing again?
In one of his youtube videos, Sycra Yasin said people don't have to go to an art school to learn to draw, but I doubt it now unless it is good enough to learn to draw with photos and 3D renders.

 

Postby Audiazif » Mon Jan 01, 2018 6:36 pm

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  Audiazif
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Honestly, I think the fact that you are so dead set on drawing digitally it is making things harder for you. The first half of your logistical issues will be solved if you just use paper and pencil. The things you should learn when drawing form life will transfer to digital because they are not media dependent. For the second part of you logistics problem, finding a model to draw from, there are other options besides art school. The simplest is just going out and draw people in public. If that is not an option than you could try to find a figure drawing group. I am not sure where you live but where I live there are figure drawing sessions or groups that are open to anyone. Sort of like a class but there is no instruction. If there is nothing like that where you live you could make one. This could ease the financial side of things when hiring the model, each person in the group pays a little for the model instead of one person paying.

tokigami.kineko wrote:Sycra Yasin said people don't have to go to an art school to learn to draw, but I doubt it now unless it is good enough to learn to draw with photos and 3D renders.

Photos, used as reference, can stand in for drawing form life once you know how to draw from life but can never replace life. 3d renders are in no way going to help in learning. You or someone else are going to be doing the posing and lighting of the model and chances are you or that someones do not know every nuance and subtly of the human form and how it moves so you will be drawing from a bastardized version of what you or that someone thinks is "life".
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Postby DarkLored123 » Mon Jan 01, 2018 7:52 pm

  DarkLored123
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If you want to remove the logistic barriers of drawing, you need to understand that there is no single way of learning to draw correctly. Being reference dependent could really harm your growth, and there is no such thing as a 'perfect reference'. It simply up to researching and studying the fundamentals of art, if you focus more on drawing from imagination and thinking of shapes that you see rather than what other people tell you to see.

In my opinion, if you focus more on drawing from imagination then you will see more growth. I've personally haven't used too many references up until now and didn't really draw from life since the first few months that I started drawing simply because I had thought that drawing from life was the only way. When it comes to learning to draw you first need to ask yourself what your goal is, if it is to draw comics (Western/Japanese) then you should focus on skills you'll need to achieve that goal, and you need to ask the question on whether you want your drawings to be super accurate or accurate enough to sell your idea to the audience. Personally I find that sacrificing accuracy to create something more interesting is what I want to achieve, simply because I get bored when something looks too real.

You really don't have to rely on books that much either, I haven't read that many books and when I have I noticed that they simply re-elaborate information that is already readily available for free from tutorials, the only difference really is that they provide exercises and talk about the information in more detail, and there is information about the fundamentals that you'll only gain by researching it thoroughly. A book will teach you how to draw perspective accurately using the perspective grid, however it won't tell you that perspective can be drawn without one and most likely won't go over crucial information about the inner workings of perspective.

So to answer your question again, the way to remove logistic barriers is simply not to have set rules on how things should be done, instead you need to think and constantly analyze whether what you are doing is efficiently making use of your time, and to develop new strategies based on that analysis which I have personally done and constantly seen rapid change. Anyone who tells you that there is a set way to learning is simply running on assumptions and does not know what they are talking about, learning without the aid of education is certainly hard, but is possible depending on how you use your time. This is all of course my opinion, so you should take it with a grain of salt.

 

Postby tokigami.kineko » Tue Jan 02, 2018 6:09 am

  
tokigami.kineko

Audiazif wrote:Honestly, I think the fact that you are so dead set on drawing digitally it is making things harder for you. The first half of your logistical issues will be solved if you just use paper and pencil. The things you should learn when drawing form life will transfer to digital because they are not media dependent.


I think you made a good point. Perhaps, I should not insist on using a pen display during learning. The goal is to learn as fast as possible. I can work on pen display when it's convenient.

Audiazif wrote:For the second part of you logistics problem, finding a model to draw from, there are other options besides art school. The simplest is just going out and draw people in public. If that is not an option than you could try to find a figure drawing group. I am not sure where you live but where I live there are figure drawing sessions or groups that are open to anyone. Sort of like a class but there is no instruction. If there is nothing like that where you live you could make one. This could ease the financial side of things when hiring the model, each person in the group pays a little for the model instead of one person paying.


I'll do it if that's part of curriculum. "Keys to Drawing", a part of My current curriculum, hasn't yet provided me with an exercise that involves people in public places.
I live in a big city. But, I haven't yet found a figure drawing session in my city or nearby cities. I'll search further.

Audiazif wrote:Photos, used as reference, can stand in for drawing form life once you know how to draw from life but can never replace life. 3d renders are in no way going to help in learning. You or someone else are going to be doing the posing and lighting of the model and chances are you or that someones do not know every nuance and subtly of the human form and how it moves so you will be drawing from a bastardized version of what you or that someone thinks is "life".


I agree that 3D renders are useful only when they are correctly done. I am not an expert in 3D modeling. I cannot recognize correct 3D renders made by others, yet.
However, 3D scans are useful when accuracy of light is not important.
Last edited by tokigami.kineko on Wed Jan 03, 2018 5:16 am, edited 12 times in total.

 

Postby tokigami.kineko » Tue Jan 02, 2018 6:29 am

  
tokigami.kineko

DarkLored123 wrote:If you want to remove the logistic barriers of drawing, you need to understand that there is no single way of learning to draw correctly. Being reference dependent could really harm your growth, and there is no such thing as a 'perfect reference'. It simply up to researching and studying the fundamentals of art, if you focus more on drawing from imagination and thinking of shapes that you see rather than what other people tell you to see.

In my opinion, if you focus more on drawing from imagination then you will see more growth. I've personally haven't used too many references up until now and didn't really draw from life since the first few months that I started drawing simply because I had thought that drawing from life was the only way. When it comes to learning to draw you first need to ask yourself what your goal is, if it is to draw comics (Western/Japanese) then you should focus on skills you'll need to achieve that goal, and you need to ask the question on whether you want your drawings to be super accurate or accurate enough to sell your idea to the audience. Personally I find that sacrificing accuracy to create something more interesting is what I want to achieve, simply because I get bored when something looks too real.


I agree that drawing from imagination removes a lot of logistic barriers. But, I currently suspect I need to learn to draw accurately to become a master at my style.
To remove logistic barriers, after mastering basic accuracy, I will focus more on drawing from imagination. I want accuracy mainly because accuracy is my aesthetic preference. I want to be accurate to the degree that my aesthetic preference desires. In particular, I want to draw human bodies and spaceships well. Especially, human bodies. I suspect I'll need to participate in human-body drawing sessions at some point in the future. But, my art curriculum's progress will not be dependent on those human-body drawing sessions.

DarkLored123 wrote:You really don't have to rely on books that much either, I haven't read that many books and when I have I noticed that they simply re-elaborate information that is already readily available for free from tutorials, the only difference really is that they provide exercises and talk about the information in more detail, and there is information about the fundamentals that you'll only gain by researching it thoroughly. A book will teach you how to draw perspective accurately using the perspective grid, however it won't tell you that perspective can be drawn without one and most likely won't go over crucial information about the inner workings of perspective.


You're right. The right information is scattered in various places. But, as a beginner, relying only on tutorials is going to be disorienting and time-consuming. To save time and reduce disorientation, it sems helpful to utilize both tutorials for granularity and textbooks for efficient batched learning. I compiled my own curriculum that contains tutorials and textbooks.

DarkLored123 wrote:So to answer your question again, the way to remove logistic barriers is simply not to have set rules on how things should be done, instead you need to think and constantly analyze whether what you are doing is efficiently making use of your time, and to develop new strategies based on that analysis which I have personally done and constantly seen rapid change. Anyone who tells you that there is a set way to learning is simply running on assumptions and does not know what they are talking about, learning without the aid of education is certainly hard, but is possible depending on how you use your time. This is all of course my opinion, so you should take it with a grain of salt.


You seem to be saying that I should be flexible in my learning. I can't think of a better way alone. I am hoping for wisdom of crowd.
Last edited by tokigami.kineko on Wed Jan 03, 2018 8:36 am, edited 3 times in total.

 

Postby tokigami.kineko » Tue Jan 02, 2018 11:04 am

  
tokigami.kineko

I just consulted two local art classes today. It seems they don't know or offer local human-drawing sessions. Such sessions were bundled with their months-long courses. They only offer package deals.
Consulting art classes were not helpful because they all wanted to extract money through courses instead of giving actual advices. I'd rather find (semi-)professional teachers and pay them for months than pay art classes if I really needed to pay.

I'll also ask this question in other communities for different points of view. Although I agree that life is superior to photos, I am not yet fully convinced that life is still better despite my current logistic barriers.
This feels analogous to learning english in japan or south korea. It seems difficult, but it's actually doable with various learning materials and paid english lessons on skype.

ADDITION 1
Today, I found a professional comics artist on a vacation on a community and talked with him on the phone for 3 hours. He said he started by mimicking comics and learned fundamentals backwards from what's required to draw his desired styles of comics. He said he saved time by learning backwards and delaying learning non-essential parts. Everyday, he practiced what he learned previously to not forget what he learned.

He also said it is likely to be ok for me to substitute photos for life because photos are slightly inaccurate while my drawings are very very inaccurate. I don't know if his method is good, but I could see what a man can accomplish in 2 years of brute-forcing backwards from scratch without drawing actual humans much. In 2 years,he came close to the level of GANTZ.

ADDITION 2
Someone on reddit told me I could
1) go out, draw scenery and people with pen and paper, and transfer the drawing to the computer by scanning or drawing again <-- I'll do it if it is part of my customized curriculum.
2) Buy an art figure model as a substitute for real humans. <--- This sounds like a good idea.

 

Postby Josephcow » Wed Jan 03, 2018 9:25 pm

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tokigami.kineko wrote:I just consulted two local art classes today. It seems they don't know or offer local human-drawing sessions. Such sessions were bundled with their months-long courses. They only offer package deals.
Consulting art classes were not helpful because they all wanted to extract money through courses instead of giving actual advices. I'd rather find (semi-)professional teachers and pay them for months than pay art classes if I really needed to pay.



This ^^. Often times if you ask, artists are happy to give you advice, private lessons, or let you visit their studio for a small price. It's shame there's no figure drawing available in your area, there usually is one in populous areas. Some artists in your area might even know of a private life drawing session that the art school didn't know about.

I just want to say that you CAN draw from photos. no it is not better than life, but it's great practice. It depends so much on what you are actually studying. A live model will be better in every possible way, but you can totally practice drawing the figure from photos. The thing is, drawing from life and drawing from photos complement each other. But drawing from photos alone may not be sufficient. I feel that you need to have the experience of the actual forms you wish to replicate in order to interpret the photo to its fullest. 3D models are good mannikins for posing and lighting. I don't think you should bother with that right now, but it's up to you.

I say it depends a lot on what you're studying because there are so many approaches related to figure drawing.

 

Postby tokigami.kineko » Thu Jan 04, 2018 12:42 am

  
tokigami.kineko

Josephcow wrote:This ^^. Often times if you ask, artists are happy to give you advice, private lessons, or let you visit their studio for a small price. It's shame there's no figure drawing available in your area, there usually is one in populous areas. Some artists in your area might even know of a private life drawing session that the art school didn't know about.

I just want to say that you CAN draw from photos. no it is not better than life, but it's great practice. It depends so much on what you are actually studying. A live model will be better in every possible way, but you can totally practice drawing the figure from photos. The thing is, drawing from life and drawing from photos complement each other. But drawing from photos alone may not be sufficient. I feel that you need to have the experience of the actual forms you wish to replicate in order to interpret the photo to its fullest. 3D models are good mannikins for posing and lighting. I don't think you should bother with that right now, but it's up to you.

I say it depends a lot on what you're studying because there are so many approaches related to figure drawing.


Fortunately, I happened to ask where I could find a figure drawing session on a local internet community. Asking there didn't occur to my mind, but I accidentally did it. Somebody told me about a local internet community that holds a nude figure drawing session in a nearby metropolis that has 10 million people. My suburban city has more area but has only about 640 thousand people. It takes 1~1.5 hours to get there. I suspect I'll also find clothed figure drawing sessions or life drawing sessions on local internet communities. It turns out that local internet communities offer things that art classes don't.

For local scenery and things I have at home, I can still draw life on pen and paper( or a portable pen display when I buy one).
But, I often find myself stuck with photos( and 3D scans) at home.
To draw actual people, I will go to (nude-)model drawing sessions (once per week?) and draw actual humans.

Thanks for info. I'll draw from life when it's accessible and photos when life is not easily accessible.


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