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Postby tokigami.kineko » Mon Sep 11, 2017 8:01 am

  tokigami.kineko
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Subject title: Finding drawing models in real life vs blender

I finally finished preparation of a proper work space and started learning art properly. I know it took far longer than it should.
I was learning Bert Dodson's Keys to drawing (1990).
It asked me to arrange a cylinder, a sphere, and a box and shed light on them and draw them.
It took 15~20 minutes to find them at my house and take a picture of them so that I can use them as a reference image on my monitor.
I draw on my Cintiq 22HD pen display. I was satisfied.

The book then asked me to shed strong light on a three-quarter view of a human face and draw it.
I couldn't find a three quarter view of a human face in strong light on the internet in a reasonable amount of time.
I couldn't figure out a way to take such a picture myself or have someone do it without spending too much time or money.
Frustration built up.

Now, I consider learning blender, downloading a human face 3D model, and rendering the face on a virtual ground in blender.
To use blender, I need to read a lengthy manual to a point. I'm still not sure if blender is worth my time, but I started reading blender manual.

There are a few questions I want to ask here.

  • Is Bert Dodson's Keys to drawing (1990) an ok book for a beginning artist? (I prefer PDF books.)
  • Is blender worth my time at this point? At some point, it'll be worth my time because I want to arrange 3D scenes and use them as references. I don't intend to become a 3D artist. My goal is to become a visual artist or a manga artist.
  • Is there a cheap way to find or take pictures of specific models in the desired lighting conditions?
  • Am I learning poorly? Do I need to revamp my education? I started asking this question because I often find myself stuck on trivial things like finding models and specific lighting conditions. I'm poor at material preparation.

 

Postby DarkLored123 » Mon Sep 11, 2017 11:31 am

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I think you'll be better off learning from tutorials and books that are specific to certain skill sets. For example, "Scott Robertson's: How To Draw" which focuses primarily on perspective. Tutorials summarize skill sets pretty well, and no matter how many books or sources you look at they will probably have the same information as any other type of material.

Since blender is a 3D program, it can aid you in learning perspective if you observe it well. I don't think that using models as reference is bad but other people's models might have flaws that you are not aware of, I'd recommend simply looking at projections of faces from straight angles and trying to use that as reference rather than looking for specific type of references.

You can think of a head in a 3/4th angle as a cube drawn in a 3/4th angle, which basically will make the corner of the cube visible to you. Learning basic forms and perspective will make this a bit easier to understand.

If I were you I'd focus on three things for the start which are, perspective, form, and proportions. You need to have a good eye for each of them in order to be able to draw anything, they are your most important tools in a sense.


https://nsio.deviantart.com/gallery/45894768/Tutorials

 

Postby Moe » Tue Sep 12, 2017 6:26 am

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One thing I'll add is to actually make manga/comics whatever. There are so many fundamentals of comic creation that can be easily glossed over if you just solely focus on fundamentals, for example writing and panel composition. In fact, writing is the most important thing when it comes to comics. You can salvage bad art with great writing but you can't salvage bad writing with great art. Readers will simply get bored and move on. Panel composition is also very important, if readers can't understand what's going on the page then they'll likely get bored and stop reading.
If you always do what you've always done, you will always get what you've always got

 

Postby tokigami.kineko » Tue Sep 12, 2017 7:38 am

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DarkLored123 wrote:I think you'll be better off learning from tutorials and books that are specific to certain skill sets. For example, "Scott Robertson's: How To Draw" which focuses primarily on perspective. Tutorials summarize skill sets pretty well, and no matter how many books or sources you look at they will probably have the same information as any other type of material.

Since blender is a 3D program, it can aid you in learning perspective if you observe it well. I don't think that using models as reference is bad but other people's models might have flaws that you are not aware of, I'd recommend simply looking at projections of faces from straight angles and trying to use that as reference rather than looking for specific type of references.

You can think of a head in a 3/4th angle as a cube drawn in a 3/4th angle, which basically will make the corner of the cube visible to you. Learning basic forms and perspective will make this a bit easier to understand.

If I were you I'd focus on three things for the start which are, perspective, form, and proportions. You need to have a good eye for each of them in order to be able to draw anything, they are your most important tools in a sense.

https://nsio.deviantart.com/gallery/45894768/Tutorials


I find it funny because I planned to learn the basics of drawing from 'Keys to drawing' by Bert Dodson and perspective from 'How to Draw' by Scott Robertson. I didn't think Scott Robertson's 'How to Draw' was for learning the basics of drawing. I think I'll use tutorials as supplementary materials, but not as main materials because tutorials focus on small skills, and I don't know about drawing well enough to divide drawing into small skill sets. I'm not sure if skipping the basics of drawing is a good idea because I don't know drawing well. If you knew a better system of learning to draw, I would want to know. Perhaps, is it ok to ditch 'Keys to drawing' by Bert Dodson and learn the basics of drawing and perspective from 'How to Draw' by Scott Robertson and learn more about perspective from some other supplementary materials?

I watched sycra's fundamentals of art which formed the main framework of my customized art curriculum.

My customized art curriculum covers perspective, form, proportions, anatomy, and a few other things.

It's ok for other people's human face models to have some flaws because the exercise isn't about drawing human face from imagination but about capturing the pattern of light and shadow and drawing by eye. As far as I know, blender's rendering is quite advanced and accurate.
I need to shed a single strong directional light on some face and draw it. There should not be other light sources.This lighting condition is very difficult to obtain except in camera studios. I don't want to pay a camera studio 20~30 US dollars for a textbook exercise. But, in blender, this is very cheap.

Moe wrote:One thing I'll add is to actually make manga/comics whatever. There are so many fundamentals of comic creation that can be easily glossed over if you just solely focus on fundamentals, for example writing and panel composition. In fact, writing is the most important thing when it comes to comics. You can salvage bad art with great writing but you can't salvage bad writing with great art. Readers will simply get bored and move on. Panel composition is also very important, if readers can't understand what's going on the page then they'll likely get bored and stop reading.


Everyday, I set aside time for learning how to create stories. I will also learn (panel) composition and comics later. For now, I want to focus on the basics of drawing. I want this thread to be about the basics of drawing and material preparation for drawing.

I think every artist should aim high. Talking about poorly drawn comics salvaged by great story is not inspiring. If I chose to become a comics artist, I would want great visual art and great story. Right now, I am not sure if I want to become a comics artist or another kind of visual artist. I'm a visual person.
Last edited by tokigami.kineko on Tue Sep 12, 2017 8:34 am, edited 2 times in total.

 

Postby Moe » Tue Sep 12, 2017 8:16 am

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Well, I never said you shouldn't aim high. Ideally, you want great art, great panel composition, and great writing, but when it comes to comics as a medium, writing takes precedence over everything else. If you're still on the fence right now, that's fine, but once you do decide what kind of visual artist you want to be, prioritizing the skills you need the most will make you reach your goal faster.
If you always do what you've always done, you will always get what you've always got

 

Postby Oli » Wed Sep 13, 2017 3:39 pm

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tokigami.kineko wrote:I couldn't find a three quarter view of a human face in strong light on the internet in a reasonable amount of time.


Well, I think you were looking at the wrong places. Pinterest has tons of ref images. Check this: https://www.pinterest.com/pin/547187423461278264/ And I don't know what you consider to be a reasonable amount of time, but I am always looking for ref images (or ideas that I can steal) online. In addition, check magazines for adds. Some of them are great refs. Plus, you might wanna check Loomis' "Figure drawing for all it's worth". You'll find a chapter on planes and how the are lighted in different situations.

When going for really life studies, you could build yourself a box to shield most of the light bouncing around (preferable a black box). All you need is a strong light source, any lamp will do here. An easy, cheap way to study light and shadows. Something like this:

Image

For everything else, do studies and thumbnails. I guess blender is not really needed...
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Postby tokigami.kineko » Wed Sep 20, 2017 12:15 pm

  tokigami.kineko
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Oli wrote:Well, I think you were looking at the wrong places. Pinterest has tons of ref images. Check this: https://www.pinterest.com/pin/547187423461278264/

When going for really life studies, you could build yourself a box to shield most of the light bouncing around (preferable a black box). All you need is a strong light source, any lamp will do here. An easy, cheap way to study light and shadows. Something like this:

For everything else, do studies and thumbnails. I guess blender is not really needed...


I can't access https://www.pinterest.com/pin/547187423461278264/
I search for reference images online before I resort to other things.

Though a light box is a great idea, I decided to learn to render objects in blender because blender would save a lot of time if I wanted to draw to references for many years.
Blender is not neccessary but useful for boosting productivity.

 

Postby Audiazif » Wed Sep 20, 2017 6:40 pm

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Maybe I come from a different way of thinking, but I do not see how learning blender to set up scenes will "boosting productivity". Maybe down the road when you are doing perspective intensive work but not when you are trying to learn. I also think it would take more time to set up a scene in blender than to just go with a light box or just looking at real life. Remember, a 3d program can only simulate lighting. It is in no way a substitute for life. The way I see it, learning to draw from a 3d program is like trying to learn to ride a bike on a stationary bike. Sure you go through similar motions but one way will teach you the actual skills you need in order to do the task you set out to do while the other will keep you in one place, spinning your wheels.
Last edited by Audiazif on Sun Sep 24, 2017 10:28 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Fantelle » Fri Sep 22, 2017 7:28 am

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Image

 

Postby Josephcow » Sun Sep 24, 2017 9:39 pm

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tokigami.kineko wrote:It asked me to arrange a cylinder, a sphere, and a box and shed light on them and draw them.
It took 15~20 minutes to find them at my house and take a picture of them so that I can use them as a reference image on my monitor.

The book then asked me to shed strong light on a three-quarter view of a human face and draw it.
I couldn't find a three quarter view of a human face in strong light on the internet in a reasonable amount of time.
I couldn't figure out a way to take such a picture myself or have someone do it without spending too much time or money.


!!
You have a human face attached to you! Just look in the mirror.

Sorry if this is harsh, but I think you need a wake up call. The book intended for you to draw *real* objects. Not take a photo of stuff and then draw the photo. It is going to set you back so far if you ignore the books (and our) advice here because drawing from photographs is not how you learn to draw what you see.

 

Postby Moe » Sun Sep 24, 2017 10:08 pm

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[/quote]

!!
You have a human face attached to you!
[/quote]

Assumption.
If you always do what you've always done, you will always get what you've always got

 

Postby tokigami.kineko » Tue Sep 26, 2017 2:43 pm

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Fantelle wrote:
Spoiler: show
Image


Where and how did you find this? It looks like NVIDIA tech demo to me.

 

Postby tokigami.kineko » Tue Sep 26, 2017 2:46 pm

  tokigami.kineko
Posts: 38
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Josephcow wrote:
tokigami.kineko wrote:It asked me to arrange a cylinder, a sphere, and a box and shed light on them and draw them.
It took 15~20 minutes to find them at my house and take a picture of them so that I can use them as a reference image on my monitor.

The book then asked me to shed strong light on a three-quarter view of a human face and draw it.
I couldn't find a three quarter view of a human face in strong light on the internet in a reasonable amount of time.
I couldn't figure out a way to take such a picture myself or have someone do it without spending too much time or money.


!!
You have a human face attached to you! Just look in the mirror.

Sorry if this is harsh, but I think you need a wake up call. The book intended for you to draw *real* objects. Not take a photo of stuff and then draw the photo. It is going to set you back so far if you ignore the books (and our) advice here because drawing from photographs is not how you learn to draw what you see.


I surmise you mean drawing to my 3D binocular vision. Technically, drawing to 2D digital images still qualifies as drawing what I see. In my point of view, the book doesn't seem to put emphasis on utilizing binocular vision. When does utilizing binocular vision become important? I'm open to education on this topic.

Also, drawing a three quarter view of my face in a strong directional light with some reflected light is very very difficult. I'd say it's almost impossible. Finding the light condition and having someone pose for me there would cost me a lot of time and money that I am not willing to pay for one of many textbook exercises. Perhaps, I need a different book that is geared toward digital drawing and self study at home.

 

Postby Josephcow » Wed Sep 27, 2017 5:14 am

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Not binocular vision per se. I don't really have much to say about that. The book doesn't seem to emphasize binocular vision, but it most certainly emphasizes drawing from life! There are so so so many reasons to draw from life. Photographs or a 3d model are not a replacement for observing the real thing. If you are in any way looking to make things look real or naturalistic, then you need to try to emulate the real thing. If you copy photos your work will look like a photo. If you copy nature your work will look like nature. That's it!

I had a glance through the Doderson book. It seems pretty good! It has a lot of exercises that seem fun and worthwhile. And I will concede that copying a 2D image as training is a start. But it's just the beginning.

http://portrait-artist.org/blog/2013/08 ... important/ (an article that presents this info nicely. The only thing I would add is that for understanding how light works, observation from life is essential! not 3d models, though they can help.)


On the self portrait: you are correct, drawing or painting your own head in 3/4 view is difficult. But certainly doable (I've done it quite a few times). All you need to do is position the mirror and your paper in such a way that you can quickly look at both with minimal head movement. But I think to begin, something easier would be better anyway. Something that doesn't move and that you can look at from a nice distance. Don't worry about lighting, models and prep so much. I find a desk lamp pointed at a cup is as good a subject as any and it takes about 1 minute to set up.

If you're looking for some other drawing books I have a few recommendations in order of difficulty from low to high (both in readability and content). I have read them all and they all have something useful and different to contribute. It depends on how serious you are about drawing.
1. Drawing on the Right side of the Brain - Betty Edwards
2. How to draw what you see -Rudy de Reyna
3. Sucessful Drawing - Loomis
4. The Science and Practice of Drawing - Harold Speed

 

Postby Fantelle » Mon Oct 02, 2017 11:52 am

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tokigami.kineko wrote:
Fantelle wrote:
Spoiler: show
Image


Where and how did you find this? It looks like NVIDIA tech demo to me.


    It's work by ZBrush user Infinite (link).


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